September 28, 2023

EXIT INTERVIEW #1, Part 1

Katie & Sonia

The following is the first EXIT INTERVIEW to appear in Mommy’s El Camino. This was quite a process, new for each of us. My intent with seeking out and publishing “exit interviews” came from thinking of some of my own past relationships—particularly the ones where I think to myself, What happened there? I’m genuinely curious about relationships other than the ones I’m in/have been in, as well as how any two people interpret how their relationship transformed or ended.

EXIT INTERVIEW #1, featuring Katie Lee Ellison and Sonia, will run in three parts. A note about the editing: Katie transcribed phone conversations with Sonia. All three of us worked from a Google document. From my own editorial seat I was mainly interested in making sure that any reader could understand the narrative. There were several instances in which Katie and Sonia’s editorial comments struck me as worthy of including in the text of the interview, but we did lose some of them as they became resolved in the working doc, so we ultimately decided not to include them.

As a witness to the shaping of the conversation through editing, I felt as an editor and a reader that I was being allowed into a very delicate and beautiful process, sometimes sticky, sometimes tender and tough. I’m grateful to both Katie and Sonia for giving us a window into their relationship.

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Welcome to EXIT INTERVIEW #1

KATIE AND SONIA, Part One

Sonia is a writer and communications professional living in New York. She is featured here under a changed name. 

Katie Lee Ellison writes essays and the newsletter A Beautiful Fad, teaches, and is the creator, curator, and host of Nonfiction for No Reason. Pieces of her memoir in essays have been published in The Seventh Wave, Shenandoah, Moss, and elsewhere. She’s a 2016-2017 Hugo House Fellow, a 2018 fellow at the Yiddish Book Center, and a 2020 Tin House Summer Workshop attendee.

Katie: This conversation is between me and my ex-best friend from high school and long into adulthood. We've known each other since we were eleven, became friends at fourteen, best friends at fifteen, and she remained like family until our early thirties. In 2016, our friendship shifted. I spent more time with her and Ben, the man she'd marry, whom I liked, then had a couple of conflicts with. The summer of that year, I learned I'm Jewish and traveled to Ukraine to track down some ancestral history, all of which generally unimpressed her, given that she’d suspected I was Jewish for a long time. 

A few different issues were creating tension between us. During this time, I visited her in NY. It wasn’t great, and within a few months, she pretty much ghosted me. After a year of silence, she called. I was really angry at her for the unexplained and sudden distance. She admitted to some intense anxiety she’d been having, and we got off abruptly. We didn't talk for years after that, during which time, she got married, I came out, she had a baby, a pandemic happened, I fell in love with my partner, and my mom committed suicide. My mom’s death brought us back in touch, and we wanted to peacefully discuss “what happened there.”

Katie: Why don't you answer the question of like, what happened. What do you think happened?

Sonia: Go?

Katie: Yeah.

Sonia: Um, so I guess what I would say I think happened is that we had a long history of friendship with a bunch of not great patterns. Well, I think some patterns that we co-created and some personality combinations that are just traits that each of us had. And I think that post-college adulthood we had a lot of time we were both apart and together, on and off in different ways, like differing amounts until we were 30. Early 32 is when we stopped talking. More accurately I feel like I cut you out. I kind of, I ghosted you. I think that a lot of the things that had always been happening in our friendship were happening for me at that time, really intensely and at a time when I had less capacity, like internal resource tools to handle them. And I didn't have anything like the skills [to] manage that in a kind, transparent, mature way. So I think what happened really literally was that I just stopped responding to you. I think at first I sort of responded to you slowly or less frequently, and then not at all or you stopped reaching out. Then I reached out to you after we hadn't spoken, I think for about a year. At the time, I think I had had a hope that that moment and conversation would be a moment where we could talk about it, fix it, pick [back] up. I had sort of a hopeful feeling about it. I feel like it went the worst way that I could have imagined. And then we didn't talk again for a long time.

Katie: Mm-hmm. I feel like it was like summer 2016, sometime around then, maybe fall 'cause I was back from that trip [to Ukraine]. Maybe it was even the next year, when we were still talking frequently. And all of our conversations at that stage were about doubts about your relationship and my feeling like I had no idea what was left to say or how to be helpful or if listening was even doing any good.

At that point I thought, let me try to push Sonia into a decision by refusing my ear. Let me help her by stopping the pattern of repeating this conversation.

I think now, and I thought very quickly afterward, that that wasn't really right or fair. 'Cause I've talked about the same problems [for] many years and just needed to. But I just didn't know what to do [to help you] and it was kind of agonizing. So that seemed to kick off just a petering out of any conversation at all.

And then just silence, which was bizarre to me, to get no response. I was like, okay, I'm not gonna chase [her]. I have a lot of time with no response from other people in other relationships. I'm not gonna play this. So I very intentionally let six months go and then [sent] a text, and then [another] six months later, [with] a precipitating event, [sent] another text.

Then two times [with] no response or little response, [I thought] I'm just not gonna do this. 

There was also, you know, that visit to [see you] was tough. That was a bad visit. That whole New York visit, I thought it was just you and I meeting up, and then it was like a whole different thing.

[Staying with you] was a disaster, [and] that was the last time I had seen you [which] colored all of that time in between. So I thought you know, she's done and that sucks for me. I don't need to fight my way into anything. Then the wedding conversation, which came out of the clear blue and with so much not communicated beforehand, and so much expectation of me. It felt like there was a lot of expectation for how I would respond after not showing up for me, even the courtesy of a reply text.

I just felt furious, I made that clear. Because I just, I've just taken too much shit. I start with a shallow pool already. So my room for taking shit as an adult is just minimal.

That's not to excuse it, it's just what I brought to that conversation. I also was still very much under the influence of [my Al Anon sponsor’s] direction. And, the same year you sort of disappeared, [my sponsor] also disappeared, [though with] communication.

That set up a tough time for me. In the meantime you got married. 

I think we are where we are now really 'cause my mom died and, I mean, so much has changed for me. I think I've changed a lot. I mean, I came out. 

I do wonder, in terms of the long patterns, what you have to say about that. I don't think I had a clear understanding about the difference between a relationship and a friendship. That's like a whole complex thing. But, um, I was perpetually unsated by romantic relationships and disappointed by them and frustrated by them and feeling like they were all sort of outside of myself and my friendships were what felt really good and actually intimate and interesting and dynamic, and where I could actually bring the whole mess of myself.

So I think there was a lot of confusion about loyalty and jealousy. And also family, because I think, you know too that you and [my sponsor] were who I considered exclusively like family, like the only two that I would call in any given situation.

So that's my understanding of what happened. But, I'm curious to know what patterns you saw?

Sonia: Right. I also have questions about some of the things you said. 

So one of the things that was happening and was part of our difficulties was after grad school we were both trying to figure things out, and we were relying on each other a lot in a way that in retrospect, I think created problems for us. It's really beautiful that we wanted to help each other and I remember that we had two different standing weekly meetings. I think we were having one as an accountability check-in, for a period of time we had to-do lists and we were checking in with each other. And there was a second one, which off the top of my head, I don't remember what its function was. So, you know, one thing that was going on on my end, I was struggling to focus, to take action, to decide, to make progress. I think for a lot of reasons that have to do with who I am and how I am. Anxiety's probably a really big one of them. I was looking to you a lot as my accountability partner, you know, to help me in a way that I don't think was fair. 

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Sonia: I think my expectations were not realistic, but I remember feeling a lot of need. Like I needed a lot, I needed help, I needed structure, I needed advice. I needed a lot.

And, I lump in making the grad school decision, if you remember that. It probably felt similar to you to like the relationship thing.

Katie: Yeah, it was the same experience for me. And in that experience, you just made the decision without me in the end anyway, so I felt like, I don't know what I did, it felt like I wasn't helpful. [So] it was very difficult… I didn't really wanna do it again on something much more important and permanent [like marriage], when I really had no idea, and wasn't even there and only had these far away perceptions and like personal experiences [with what you were dealing with].

Sonia: Yeah. So at the same time that was what was happening. I think, you know, for me, I was trying to figure out freelance work, build it into a business, do projects, also write a book, all simultaneously every single week. So in hindsight, that's not fair. But I did feel at the time that you weren't making a lot of effort in those meetings or in that part of our relationship. You know, my experience of it at the time was that you felt checked out a lot to me. 

Katie: This is in the accountability meetings.

Sonia: I felt like you would often be late, not ready. And you would take up more than half an hour of our hour and not be aware of it and not offer me a lot when we were talking about my stuff. My perception of it was like I showed up on time, ready to go really like, put energy into helping you with whatever was on your list for the week.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Sonia: And you took that while making your breakfast and kind of half awake and I felt like I didn't really get it back. And when you were moving to Seattle, that coincided with you trying to set up your life and you were making a lot of new friendships and connections and networking and that exacerbated it for me because that would pull some of your energy and attention away. And I would also kind of see what seemed to me like the Katie I was getting versus the Katie other people were getting. It felt shitty to me. I felt like I got… not the one I wanted of the two.

Katie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sonia: You know, and jealous because it's exciting. You're having new friendships, new stuff happening, and I think you were also exploring career options more in my neck of the woods, around communication and content, but I didn't feel like you were interested in my career experiences. Saying this out loud, I feel petty, like that sounds petty to my ear, but it's in the vein of what the hell happened. This is it.

Katie: Yeah.

Sonia: A similar weird thing, with your figuring out your connection to Judaism also felt like my neck of the woods. And to parody it, you'd be like, Sonia, did you know about like shabbat? You know? And I'd be like, yeah, I know about shabbat stuff. You never wanted to hear about it before. You know? So that felt sort of annoying and hurtful.

Katie: Why hurtful?

Sonia: A lack of interest and respect maybe, or understanding. It's funny, I feel like one of the hallmarks of our friendship was your interest in my interiority. I feel like the intimacy of our relationship was generally about being really deep about what's going on inside us, right. What we're feeling and thinking, right.

Katie: Mm-hmm? Yes.

Sonia: But then when it came to these things, it felt like you didn't see me, I guess.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Sonia: The Jewish thing feels more complicated also.

Katie: Uh, yeah. That's something that I had questions about also. 'Cause I just remember the response. It was kind of nice to sit down with both you and Ben and tell you about Ukraine because of his relationship to what I was saying also. But ideally it would've been a conversation between you and I.

Sonia: Hmm.

Katie: Ben just became a fixture inside our friendship. That limited everything to me. Our relationship had been so intimate and interior and based on the things that we had in common. So that was tough too. It was both nice because again, he could understand some of it, but mostly what I came away with from that conversation was a general feeling of disinterest from the other side of the table, from both of you. That just made me not wanna ever talk to you about it again. 

Sonia: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. And it felt like it was a result of you in particular watching me like spew antisemitic sentiment for a very long time, as a result of my upbringing. And that's not to say that I'm not responsible for that, but I was living inside of a kind of brainwashing that was very deep and physically threatening and that remained terrifying to me for a very long time. So that created some crunchiness for me too, because it felt like you didn't really think I was Jewish, or you thought I was a different kind of fraud now, or that you thought that I was full of shit or [was putting on] a show or whatever. And with Ben sitting there, there [wa]s no room [with him] always, always sitting there. There's never any room to have an honest conversation between us. 

Sonia: Yeah. You're, you're reminding me of an aspect, which is that, to go back a little bit, with the accountability stuff, I think at some point I suggested we stop doing it. I remember trying to talk about it or about what I needed from it, and it wasn't really getting any better. I suggested we stop doing it because it wasn't feeling good and I was having a lot of feelings and frustrations.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Sonia: I think that was one of the most healthy [steps I took], sadly. But I remember you being upset, or having a negative reaction, which I was a little surprised about because I didn't sense that it had held that much value to you. Um, yes, okay. Relationship stuff. There was the struggling with the relationship also. 2016 was so fucked 'cause I started the new job at the beginning of that year. I think what I didn't know was happening was that I was maybe experiencing depression.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Sonia: Definitely experiencing acute anxiety. Like heart racing, sick to the stomach, anxiety, all the time. I think a lot of it snowballed out of all the uncertainty and stress of freelancing, trying to make all these things work. I mean, who knows, right? Everything is everything or everything is tied together. But, I went into that job and was really excited about it. And then as soon as I got there, I was like tanked by my anxiety. I was spinning my wheels. It was really hard. This is around the time you were going on your Ukraine trip and I had this memory of you calling me from Ukraine one day while I was in the office and I answered knowing that you were calling me from Ukraine. I was like, it's probably important, and running into a conference room to take the call and you were having trouble, I think with the translator guy and you were really upset and we talked for, I don't know, a half hour, an hour or something. And what I remember is thinking – again, not like I'm [not] gonna take responsibility for my part of this – but that you didn't ask if it was a good time for me to talk, if I was available.

From my perspective, you weren't sensitive to that. I was at this brand new job and in the middle of my workday and I got pulled away and was on the phone with you for a long time dealing with this crisis thing.

And then, in my own crises, I felt, which I think I said to you sometimes that you felt unavailable or uninterested, and like you were just saying about your kind of reasoning at the time that you weren't, you didn't know how to be helpful.

You thought maybe the best thing you could do was to like, not participate in the conversation.

Katie: Um, and I remember all of that and none of [ my actions] were really right. I think [I was] confused about romantic relationships versus friendships. I think I also treated you like a full set of family members sometimes. Like mom, aunt, older/younger sister, cousin, whatever. I also remember from setting up the class [we taught together], you know, and I voiced many times [being] very frustrated. I felt like I was carrying that whole thing on my back. I really don't think that's the case, that's not something that I still hold to be true. But that is an attitude that I couldn't really shake going into that year or so afterward.

Sonia: Hmm.

Katie: And at the same time, not asking you about job stuff, or Jewish stuff. I think with the Jewish stuff, I really felt very teenage to me, just needing to find my own way with it on my own terms, especially because I had had exposure to your kind of Judaism just by going to Jewish stuff with you [in high school]. So I didn't really wanna talk about it with you because I felt inherently what would be dragged into that kind of conversation or dynamic would be the kind of Jew I was, which was really fucked up and not a person that I wanted to bring into the future at all. [It’s] still really painful and troublesome to think about the ways I acted.

Sonia: Hmm.

Katie:  And at the same time, I have these really indelible, deep, important, kind of revelatory memories and moments of being among Jews as a result of our friendship [in high school]. Like the dances and… 

Sonia: NFTY [The Reform Jewish Youth Movement] dances?!

Katie: NFTY dances!

Sonia: God, I didn't know what you were talking about when you [said] Jewish experiences with me.

Katie: Yeah, and I went to temple with you a couple of times, so I had these very important memories that felt like a past self I was trying to build on. Positive experiences. But again, everything that came up around all this Jewish stuff from the DNA test on, even the research I was doing, there was all this crunchiness that I felt from you probably because of the things that I had said to you. I remember distinctly that one conversation we had walking back to your apartment in Brooklyn [a long time ago]. You said, “You're Jewish.” And I said, “No, I’m not.” 

So, the job thing: it just felt distinctly like you had carved out your own way that was so different from me. You present such a completely different skill set from mine, even though we have all these things in common. I don't know if I’m seeing more differences than actually make any sense, but to speak to your point, I wasn't listening. I think it really was me pitting you as mom or something and not wanting to do anything your way, wanting to separate from you. Maybe, particularly and acutely because we had been doing so many things together and I had all this frustration around the ways that we do things so differently. In a different mindset at a different point in my life that could have been an opportunity. 

Sonia: Yeah. There was this boundaries thing and not being listened to in kind of two ways. You didn't really hear me when I said no, or when I said that I needed something to be different. To use a lighthearted example that sticks out in my memory is when you were leaving for India and you made me take all your furniture and all your clothes. It's funny to me now… [I’m] a little angry, but it's funny: That color block Italian sweater you had. I thought it was ridiculous, but you're like, it's amazing. You made me take it. And then I wore it all the time. I loved it. I wore it like as a dress over leggings

Katie: Told you.

Sonia: And then you took it back.

Katie: Yeah.

Sonia: And with the sweater, it's funny, but it's fucked up, and to me it felt emblematic of [your attitude], “you'll do what I want you to do. I'm gonna have it my way.” Then when I had crises, you know… I understand your explanation of why you thought it was better to not [keep talking with me about my relationship]. But, like you said, I've spent a lot of years having, you know, conversations with you about the same things, so much.

And then I felt like one of the times or a couple of the times that I felt like I really, really needed to be listened to, you wouldn't listen to me. And actually it is making me emotional to say that now 'cause it was pretty heartbreaking. 

Katie: Yeah, I'm sorry. I think I still struggle to know what to do when someone is sad or tender. These were things that were absolutely not permitted, treacherous, to behave that way.

Sonia: Yeah.

Katie: I was never let in to that either. So to see it on anybody, especially somebody that I love or care about or that has been there for me, I panic, like: fix it.

Sonia: Mm-hmm. You were just saying about like, me being mom, do you think it was like, mom's not allowed to not be okay? Mom has to be okay.

Katie: I think it's partially that, but when my mom was upset, you get out of the fucking way. Do not be seen or heard, get out, or you are gonna pay. 

Sonia: [So “be] close and hold me” is not…

Katie: Oh my God, not the thing I was set up to do. Also, your being sad and upset looked so different from what I was accustomed to. I didn't even know how to take it seriously. Like it was on such a reasonable scale that I was like, she's fine. 

Sonia: Right, right. If there aren't like firearms involved, police…

Katie: Yeah. 

Sonia: That's crazy.

Katie: This is not to offer an excuse, but to say like, I didn't do any of this maliciously. I think I knew that I was not doing what I was supposed to do, but I had no understanding of what that really meant or what the alternatives were. And all I really knew what to do, how to act about it, was like self-righteous and on my own side. Like, toughen up, that's all that I knew how to do. I think even you’re being sad and asking me for anything, I felt angry 'cause I never had permission to ever have feelings like that, much less had any training in how to deal with them.

Sonia: Even though you did bring those feelings, like when you were upset or hurt or struggling, you brought them to me, it was allowed with me. Right?

Katie: Yeah. And that's the double standard that I lived with. When I was 12 and younger, my mom would come to me in a breakdown and I would try to help her. That's how she would get my attention and how we would bond. That's how she got close to me. But I knew I couldn't trust her and it felt very unsafe and very incestuous and bad, but I also desperately wanted her to be well.

Sonia: Hmm.

Katie: So anyway, that's all the stuff that was going on on my end when you were just trying to have me listen to you like, uh, way too much noise. I was not capable.

PART TWO of EXIT INTERVIEW #1, Katie and Sonia, will appear next week.