Interview with Leonardo da Vinci 🎨🔭
Hello friends,
Today I have an interview with one of my favorite people in history. I hope you enjoy it :)
Leonardo da Vinci is the definition of a Renaissance man. His most famous works are the Mona Lisa and The Last Supper, but that’s barely the tip of the iceberg.
He made designs for a scuba diving suit, a parachute, a tank, and a flying machine. He invented new techniques in painting like sfumato and acuity perspective. He did research in a wide variety of fields from astronomy to urban planning. He excelled at music and stand-up comedy.
He was the most curious man in history.
In this interview, I talk to Leonardo about learning, curiosity, creativity, and more.
(If you want to read this in a browser, or share it, here's the link: https://dkb.show/post/leonardo-da-vinci)
DKB: Did you struggle with perfectionism?
Leonardo: I wouldn’t use the word “struggle” but yes, I always strived to bring my paintings as close as possible to perfection. That’s why I held on to some of them for decades.
There’s a painting I started in 1480 called “Saint Jerome in the Wilderness”, and at that point I didn’t know as much about human anatomy. I did some intense anatomy studies in 1510, and realized that one of the neck muscles in this painting was wrong, so I went back to correct it.
I held on to my paintings because there was always the possibility that I’d discover a new way to improve them.
And when it felt like perfection was impossible for a painting because of the complexity, I abandoned it. Better to leave it unfinished, than make something I wasn’t proud of.
DKB: How were you able to make so many new discoveries in such a wide variety of fields?
Leonardo: Above all, I was committed to being a disciple of experience.
Those arrogant, traditionally educated people might say that my work can’t be trusted because I didn’t go through the education system. That’s a bad take, because my subjects require real experience, not just the words of others.
It’s true that I don’t have the power to regurgitate what someone else told me, like these “educated” people do. Instead I have something more powerful, the ability to come up with my own experiments and learn from nature directly.
When I was studying the flight of birds, I made detailed drawings of their anatomy, and ran experiments to understand their interaction with air.
If I went to school, I would have learned Aristotle’s thoughts on the flight of birds, which is that they were supported by air the same way that ships were by water. This is obviously wrong, because birds are heavier than air and subject to being pulled down by gravity.
From my own experiments, I learned that birds flew because of the difference in air pressure between the top and bottom of their curved wings. And with that knowledge, I was one step closer to building my flying machine.
When it comes to representing the human form, most people only know surface level anatomy. I dissected bodies myself to understand every tiny detail of how they work. And when I was working on a horse sculpture, I dissected horses as well, and made comparisons with human anatomy.
Alberti’s book on painting taught that lines should be drawn to delineate edges, and that’s what everyone did. I observed the real world and saw that it was the opposite. When we look at objects, we don’t see sharp lines around them, it’s a little blurry. That’s how I came up with the sfumato technique, where outlines have a smokey finish.
DKB: It seems a bit crazy that you dissected horses to understand their anatomy better just to make a sculpture, wouldn’t regular observation have been enough?
And likewise with human anatomy, I don’t see how understanding the heart or the brain would ever help you make better paintings.
Leonardo: With the horse sculpture I definitely got sidetracked. I went so deep down the rabbit hole of horse anatomy that I started writing a book about it. I also thought of ways to make cleaner horse stables, and came up with new systems for replenishing the feed bins and removing manure.
Was all of that “necessary” to make the horse sculpture? Absolutely not.
Often I would start learning something for a specific project, then end up falling down a rabbit hole along the way.
When I was studying human anatomy, I made detailed diagrams of the vertebrae, and investigated how the heart valves work. I don’t think any of this was particularly useful for painting, but I found it interesting.
All the great people who came before me already figured out the useful and important things. So all that was left for me to study were the topics that others in the past saw and ignored because they didn’t seem important.
People who only care about money might call this useless work, but I believe that wisdom is the highest good. Nothing is more fundamental to a healthy soul.
DKB: You clearly learned a lot through your own observations and experiments, but I’m curious about the importance of other people in your journey.
Were you a lone genius? How important was collaboration for you?
Leonardo: I wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without the help of some amazing people. In the Milanese court, I was surrounded by the smartest people in a wide variety of fields. We had musicians, engineers, and all kinds of scientists. It was heaven.
One of my closest friends at the Milanese court was Luca Pacioli, a great mathematician. He taught me the beauty of geometry and other math concepts, and I worked on the shape illustrations for his math book.
With the help of Marcantonio della Torre, a university professor, I was able to illustrate and describe every muscle group and major organ of the human body. There’s no way I would have been able to do this on my own.
My “Vitruvian Man” drawing was the result of bouncing ideas around with my friends Francesco and Giacomo.
Here are some drawings of Francesco’s thoughts:
And here are Giacomo’s thoughts:
All of our discussions were very helpful, and I was able to make a version that I was proud of.
DKB: Can you talk briefly about your creative process when it comes to paintings?
Leonardo: The story of The Last Supper is pretty funny. I had to paint that one in public, so there were people who would come every day to see what I was doing.
Some days I would go early in the morning, climb the scaffolding, and paint all day without moving to eat or drink.
Other days I would go there and stare at the painting for hours, looking for flaws and opportunities for improvements. Then I would leave without painting anything.
Sometimes I would suddenly have a new insight, go to the painting, climb the scaffolding, apply a single brush stroke, then leave.
The Duke of Milan heard about this stuff and was worried I wouldn’t finish the painting on time. I had a discussion with him about how creativity worked.
I told him that creative people sometimes accomplish the most when they work the least. Our minds are filled with ideas, and we need time for those ideas to marinate, until we eventually get an insight.
I also told him I had two heads left to paint: Christ and Judas. And I was having trouble finding a model for Judas, so he could be the model if he really wanted it done right now. Then he laughed and sent me away.
DKB: Do you have any last words of wisdom?
Leonardo: Just like a day well spent brings happy sleep, a life well used brings happy death.
Use your life well.
Follow your curiosities, dive down rabbit holes, and make something you’re proud of.
If you made it all the way to the end of this, send me a message and let me know what you thought of it!
Also, if there's anyone you want to see an interview with, let me know.
much love,
dkb