Interview with Lao Tzu: Go with the flow 🌊
The Tao Te Ching is one of the most translated books in the world. It’s the most popular Taoist book, and was written by the mysterious sage, Lao Tzu, around 400 BC.
According to legend, Lao Tzu grew tired of the moral decay in his kingdom, and decided to leave. On his way out the gates, the guard asked him to share his wisdom before he left. He wrote his thoughts down on a scroll before departing. That scroll is the Tao Te Ching.
In this interview with Lao Tzu, we talk about what it means to live a good life, and why I don’t actually know anything.
(Click here to read directly on the website, which includes citations)
DKB: You’re one of the founding fathers of Taosim, can you talk about what the “Tao” means?
Lao Tzu: No, I cannot tell you what the Tao means. The Tao that can be spoken of is not the enteral Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The unnameable is the eternally real.
DKB: Uh…surely you must be able to tell me *something* about it?
Lao Tzu: There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is subtle and elusive.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao.
Humans imitate the earth.
The earth imitates heaven.
Heaven imitates the Tao.
The Tao imitates only itself.
DKB: Interesting. I feel like many different spiritual philosophies have some idea of an “unmanifested first cause”. If you trace cause and effect back to the beginning, you end up with a paradox. So there has to be this “event with no cause”, which you can call God, or Brahman, or the Tao.
Each of these philosophies has their own ideas of what it means to live in harmony with that “unmanifested first cause”, which defines the rules and rituals of the religion.
So in the case of Taoism, what does it mean to live in accordance with the Tao?
Lao Tzu: In harmony with the Tao, the sky is clear and spacious, the earth is solid and full, and all creatures flourish together.
When man interferes with the Tao, the sky becomes filthy, the earth becomes depleted, the equilibrium crumbles, and creatures become extinct.
The Master views the parts with compassion, because he understands the whole.
His constant practice is humility.
The more you know, the less you understand.
In the pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added. In the practice of the Tao, every day something is dropped. Less and less do you need to force things, until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
True mastery can be gained by letting things go their own way. It can’t be gained by interfering.
DKB: Can you elaborate more on “when nothing is done, nothing is left undone.”? I feel like it’s trying to say something interesting, but I don’t know what just yet.
Lao Tzu: The Master acts without doing anything, and teaches without saying. Things arise and she lets them come. Things disappear and she lets them go. She has but doesn’t posses. She acts but doesn’t expect. When her work is done, she forgets it. That is why it lasts forever.
Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt.
Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner.
Do your work, then step back.
DKB: Oh, so you mean we shouldn’t be attached to the outcome of things we do? This sounds pretty similar to some things I’ve learned from Stoicism and Hinduism as well.
This theme keeps popping up, but I still don’t understand how to actually…do it?
How am I supposed to act without expectation? Aren’t we always expecting something?
Lao Tzu: Act without doing. Work without effort. Think of the small as large, and the few as many. Confront the difficult while it is still easy. Accomplish the great task by a series of small acts.
The Master never reaches for the great, thus she achieves greatness. When she runs into a difficulty, she stops and gives herself to it. She doesn’t cling to her own comfort, thus problems are no problem for her.
He who stands on tiptoe doesn’t stand firm.
He who tries to shine, dims his own light.
He who clings to his work will create nothing that endures.
If you want to accord with the Tao, just do your job, then let go.
DKB: Everyone wants to achieve success. Of course I want to “reach for the great”. Why would we ever do anything if we didn’t want to win?
Lao Tzu: The best athlete wants his opponent at his best. They embody the virtue of non-competition. It’s not that they don’t love to compete, but they do it in the spirit of play. In this they are like children, and in harmony with the Tao.
Success is deceptive, because it can be as dangerous as failure.
DKB: How could success be as dangerous as failure?
Lao Tzu: Whether you go up the ladder or down it, your position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground, you will always keep your balance.
DKB: If we aren’t pursuing success then what are we supposed to pursue? It’s not like I’m chasing after selfish goals. I want to help improve the world for everyone. Is there something wrong with trying to succeed at that?
Lao Tzu: You want to improve the world?
I don’t think it can be done.
The world is sacred. It can’t be improved. If you tamper with it, you’ll ruin it.
If you treat it like an object, you’ll lose it.
The Master sees things as they are, without trying to control them. She lets them go their own way.
Express yourself completely, then keep quiet.
DKB: What do you mean “let things go their own way”? Do you expect me to do nothing?
Lao Tzu: If you realize that all things change, there is nothing you will try to hold on to.
Trying to control the future is like trying to take the master carpenter’s place. When you handle the master carpenter’s tools, chances are that you’ll cut yourself.
The master allows things to happen.
She shapes events as they come.
She steps out of the way, and lets the Tao speak for itself.
DKB: At this point you’re just saying a bunch of repetitive nonsense. No offense, but I’m not sure I’ve learned a single thing from this conversation.
Lao Tzu: Music or the smell of good cooking may make people stop and enjoy, but words that point to the Tao seem monotonous and without flavor.
When you look for it, there is nothing to see.
When you listen for it, there is nothing to hear.
Approach it and there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
You can’t know it, but you can be it, at ease in your own life.
DKB: And now you’re just talking in complete paradoxes.
Lao Tzu: When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good, other things become bad.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
We join spokes together in a wheel, but it is the center hole that makes the wagon move.
We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want.
DKB: I’m beginning to wonder if your whole purpose is to deliberately confuse me until I lose my mind trying to make sense of what you’re saying. You just won’t give me a straight answer to anything. Why?
Lao Tzu: Those who know don’t talk, and those who talk don’t know.
The ancient Masters didn’t try to educate the people, but kindly taught them to not know.
When they think that they know the answers, people are difficult to guide. When they know that they don’t know, people can find their own way.
Not knowing is true knowledge. Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick, then you can move towards health.
The Master is her own physician. She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus, she is truly whole.
DKB: Okay, okay. I will clear my mind. My cup is empty. I’m a blank canvas. I’m going to let go of everything I think I know. I’m ready to learn. Please teach me.
Lao Tzu: If you want to become full, let yourself be empty. If you want to be reborn, let yourself die. If you want to be given everything, give everything up.
The Master, by residing in the Tao, sets an example for all beings. Because he doesn’t display himself, people can see his light. Because he has nothing to prove, people can trust his words. Because he doesn’t know who he is, people recognize themselves in him. Because he has no goal in mind, everything he does succeeds.
The Master stays behind. That is why he is ahead. He is detached from all things. That is why he is one with them. Because he has let go of himself, he is perfectly fulfilled.
The Master does his job, and then stops.
He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao.
Because he believes in himself, he doesn’t try to convince others.
Because he is content with himself, he doesn’t need others’ approval.
Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him.
The Master doesn’t try to be powerful, thus he is truly powerful. The ordinary man keeps reaching for power, thus he never has enough.
The Master does nothing, yet he leaves nothing undone. The ordinary man is always doing things, yet many more are left to be done.
The Master doesn’t think about his actions. They flow from the core of his being.
DKB: Okay, some of that actually made sense. There seems to be some general idea that we should go with the flow, and strive to be more flexible and adaptable.
Lao Tzu: The gentlest thing in the world overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
This shows the value of non-action. Teaching without words, performing without actions – that is the Master’s way.
Men are born soft and supple. Dead, they are stiff and hard. Plants are born tender and pliant. Dead, they are brittle and dry.
Thus whoever is stiff and inflexible is a disciple of death.
Whoever is soft and yielding is a disciple of life.
The hard and stiff will be broken.
The soft and supple will prevail.
The supreme good is like water, which nourishes all things without trying to. It is content with the low places that people disdain, thus it is like the Tao.
Nothing in the world is as soft and yielding as water. Yet for dissolving the hard an inflexible, nothing can surpass it.
The soft overcomes the hard, and the gentle overcomes the rigid.
True words seem paradoxical.
DKB: That’s a beautiful metaphor about water, and yeah I’ve noticed that many spiritual philosophies are filled with paradoxes…
Lao Tzu: The path into the light seems dark.
The path forward seems to go back.
True power seems weak.
True clarity seems obscure.
The greatest love seems indifferent.
The greatest wisdom seems childish.
The Tao is nowhere to be found. Yet it nourishes and completes all things.
DKB: I get that there’s a paradoxical nature to many of these ideas, but I want to challenge you to say one thing in a simple, straightforward way that anyone can understand.
Lao Tzu: Some say that my teaching is nonsense. Others call it lofty but impractical. But to those who have looked inside themselves, this nonsense makes perfect sense.
I have just three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in action and thoughts, you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies, you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate towards yourself, you reconcile all beings in the world.
DKB: The Master you describe sounds like a great ideal to strive towards, but it seems like quite a challenge. And to be honest, I didn’t fully grasp a lot of what you said. Maybe after re-reading our conversation a few times it will make more sense.
Lao Tzu: My teachings are easy to understand and easy to put into practice. Yet your intellect will never grasp them. And if you try to practice them, you’ll fail.
My teachings are older than the world. How can you grasp their meaning? If you want to know me, look inside your heart.
The Master keeps her mind always at one with the Tao. That is what gives her her radiance.
The Tao is ungraspable, so how can her mind be at one with it?
Because she doesn’t cling to ideas.
The Tao is dark and unfathomable, so how can it make her radiant?
Because she lets it.
Hello end-of-the-newsletter-crew!
I usually add a small note at the end of the newsletter here, and some of you reply, so I know there's at least a small group of you that actually reads the entire thing.
I think I'll start using this space at the end a bit more for personal musings. Today I want to apologize for the long wait time in between this one and the last. Things got very busy at work, leaving me with no time to work on this.
If you've been here since the beginning, you've probably seen me alternate the cadence of these articles numerous times. First it was bi-monthly then monthly then weekly then bi-weekly. Very chaotic.
As of right now, I'm going to take it back to monthly, because that's probably more realistic. Hopefully in the future I'll be able to do it at a faster cadence. So many people to interview, so little time...
As Lao Tzu recommends, I'm going to stop fighting against the currents of life and move with them instead.
Thanks for being here.
much love,
dkb