Karen, Richard, and Matt are professional relations: business partners who are also family members. This issue, Karen speaks to her son Matt about greening cleaning, with editing by her husband Richard.

“It’s about being aware of what I’m running down the drain”

Matt
What's the biggest difference between the cupboard under your sink and most other people's?

Karen
A better comparison would be the same cupboard now and 5 years ago.

A bottle of bleach was my go-to for cleaning sinks and drains – now there's some packets and bottles of non-toxic 'ingredients' for a range of home-made cleaning products and some glass bottles of the made-up products.

Matt
Why? What happened in those 5 years?

Karen
I bought a book called Clean and Green by Nancy Birtwhistle. I'd followed her on social media where she posted hints and tips on how to change to less harmful ways of cleaning. I tried some suggestions and was impressed.

Matt
You say, "less harmful ways of cleaning". What's the harm you (and Nancy) are trying to avoid by mixing your own alternatives? Which cleaning products are causing harm, and in what way?

Karen
It’s about being aware of what I’m running down the drain.

If you read the labels of commercially produced cleaning chemicals, they warn about their long-term harm to aquatic life because they contain ingredients that are toxic; they can disrupt ecosystems and enter the food chain. They don’t biodegrade easily and can build up in the environment.

Some of the ingredients I use now are also used in baking and food preparation, so I’m confident they don’t cause harm: bicarbonate of soda (bicarb) as a scourer and drain freshener; citric acid for removing limescale, vinegar for cleaning glass and washing soda for cleaning burnt on food and as a general cleaner. They might need some effort, but the results are good, and all break down into harmless components in the environment. By buying in bulk and mixing in reuseable containers, I’m also reducing my use of plastic and saving money!

Matt
It's always nice when you save some money as well as helping the environment. Are there other benefits of switching to these ingredients? Are there elements of cleaning they do better than supermarket products?

Karen
I’ve read that bleach works by removing the colour from stains rather than the dirt causing the stain. The ‘green’ alternative is sodium percarbonate which, when added to hot water releases oxygen bubbles and hydrogen peroxide which work on stains and dirt, removing them and leaving surfaces and fabrics clean. Time is needed – the effect isn’t as immediate as using bleach, but the result is much more satisfying.

Matt
I'm starting to wish I'd been more into chemistry at school! Are there other kitchen or bathroom products you've swapped for more environmentally friendly alternatives?

Karen
I use beeswax wraps to cover food instead of clingfilm. I've got a few of these to fit various bowls and containers. The wraps can be washed and reused. They can also be refreshed by putting them in a low oven with some beeswax pellets.

Matt
And the wraps make the fridge look quite cheerful!

“Your Dad and I have reasonably equal involvement in running the household”

Matt
Part of our business is encouraging people (and businesses) to change to more environmentally friendly habits. What convinced you to make the change? It sounds like more work than just buying a bottle of bleach or a roll of clingfilm, so you must have been convinced. Any idea how to convince others?

Karen
The change didn't happen at once. I started using bicarb to clean the sink, as I had some in the cupboard. That worked, so I built up the changes from there. Ideas come from following Nancy and others on social media to see their latest tips, or buying a book to use as a reference.

Matt
Before we let people do that, I feel like we should address the gender/feminist angle to this.

You're the Mum of our family and the only woman in Foggy Outline, and here we are talking about something that's traditionally thought of as women's work. Should Dad and I, and men more generally, be taking more of a role in changing things?

Karen
Good point!

I feel your Dad and I have reasonably equal involvement in running the household and hope that we’ve passed this on to you and your brother. Dad instigated our change to 'eco' cleaning products such as washing up and laundry liquids. It was natural to make further changes.

Matt
So, it's ok to change things little by little? We're not saying the readers should throw out everything in the kitchen and bathroom cupboards at once and spend all this weekend mixing up bottles of vinegar and soda?

Karen
I certainly wouldn't like to be the instigator of a lot of toxic chemicals going down the drain or into landfill all at once! The step-by-step approach worked for me, and I’ve sustained the changes.

There’s more to this interview. Buy us a cuppa on Ko-fi to support our work, and you can read the unabridged versions of this and every Professional Relations interview.

• 11 April, St John’s Methodist Church Hall, Settle: A Yorkshire conference on the values crisis, asking “can we create a just, sustainable world here?” Dad’s been doing some work on this event behind the scenes.

Doing business on a sick planet

Our much anticipated course is fully complete. Dad’s working on building some hype before making it live. Follow him on Linkedin for previews.

I Need A Miracle

We’re another month closer to crowdfunding for season 2 in September! I’ve been lining up appearances on podcasts to go live while the campaign is running. If you can help me become inescapable in September, reply to this email to let me know how.

Matt highlights James Tynion III:

Tynion’s the writer of some of my favourite comics of the past 10 years, and isn’t afraid of a long title like Something Is Killing The Children or The Nice House on the Lake. He seems equally unafraid to write things that are highly weird, undeniably queer, and as utterly horrible as they need to be for the story to work; or to strike out and take business risks to get his stories out there (he started Tiny Onion, a comics publisher that’s now well on the way to being a media empire).