Whowatch Special - All-Star Superman
And of course since conducting the interview, Morrison mentioned in a Q&A they weren't as intense a Doctor Who fan as previously believed, which may color a few of our seeming observations here. We still had a hoot though!
David: Hey folks! Welcome to a very special entry in Whowatch. Not giving this the usual numbering, but I think this’ll be enjoyable for new and returning readers alike.
Sean: As always, I’m Sean Dillon, I’m joined with David Mann. And for this, we have a very special guest - Doc Shaner!
Doc: Hi guys!
David: Hi, glad to have you!
Doc: Glad to be here! You guys have been so patient with me, so I really appreciate it.
David: I know it’s been con season lately…
Doc: [Laughs]
David: So any time that can be made is I know really snatched from the jaws of that.
Sean: Before we dive in to talk about the subject of this entry of the Whowatch, we as always ask our guests one simple question: Doc, what’s your experience with Doctor Who? Have you just been ignoring it because Mitch Gerads worked on it?
Doc: [Laughter] That just about peeled it for me, that dude for sure. No, I’ve been watching since…I think about halfway through the Tennant years. But I’m not caught up all the way through the most recent stuff.
Sean: How far back are you?
Doc: I think I watched…the actress’ name has completely left me all of a sudden…
David: Jodie Whittaker?
Doc: Thank you! Good grief! I think I’ve seen the first series of Jodie Whittaker’s tenure. And that’s about as far back as I am, I think.
David: Well, that’s about where I am, so we’re on a pretty similar playing field then.
Doc: Okay good [Laughs]
Sean: I’m fully caught up, and as people who have been following understand, helping David catch up. Occasionally though we make pit stops to talk about previous stories from the Classic Era and occasionally some comics. Today we are going to be jumping through one of those loops and talking about a certain Sixth Doctor Story - All-Star Superman.
Doc: [Laughs]
Sean: It counts!
Doc: Hey, I’m with you.
David: Grant [Morrison] has said that not only are they a Doctor Who lifer to the point of having pitched for the show proper, but in fact, specifically the 3rd Doctor being their favorite, they maintain the Chronovore [in All-Star] was a coincidence.
Doc: [Laughing]
David: Even though that one episode that Sean had us review, although in that Doctor Who version, the Chronovore was a person with a sheet draped over them to make them look a little bit like a bird as they flapped their arms. Whereas in the comic, it’s a Frank Quitely gore-crosssection.
Sean: Which is probably for the best when you have Frank Quitely doing the art.
David: And that’s as good a place as any to start. I get that this is sort of the book where Frank Quitely popularly went to Great Modern Master material even though he’d already done Flex Mentallo, New X-Men, and I dunno, Electric Soup? And so it’s kinda taken as a given for him. But this was my first time going back to All-Star in years, because I’d been doing the annotations for them for a long time that I may resume some day. I certainly took a lot of notes, enough notes for it. And I was reading one at a time for that, so I hadn’t really reread it properly since. And so this was finally going back after like 5 years and Frank Quitely drew 12 Superman issues - why do we not talk about that all the time?
Doc: [Laughs] No kidding.
David: And I’m still picking up new stuff in it! I noticed just this time that when Lois has been affected by the Super-Serum fumes and she’s typing furiously on her computer, after 15 years I just noticed this time that Quitely draws her with multiple overlapping hands to show how fast she’s typing.
Doc: Mmmhmm, mmhmm, yeah.
Sean: I’m just flipping through my copy of the Absolute, what version do you have, Doc? David and I have it in the Absolutes.
Doc: [Laughs] I have it in a few versions. This is one of those books that I’m guilty of having bought a few times. The one I’m holding at the moment, I don’t actually even know. It’s just a Trade Paperback, so I’m not sure what year this will be from, but it collects all 12 issues. But it’s not the Deluxe or the Black Label reprint or anything. I’m flipping through it right now too.
Sean: Oh! I found in the first issue, the thing that is scrolled at the epilogue part, the news that reads PLANT TO FINGER LUTHOR, which reminds you that Grant Morrison has a sense of humor.
Doc: [Laughing] Yeah
David: You got that. You got WHO-WAS-J-LO?
Doc: [Laughs] Right!
David: Which on the one hand, you’d almost expect them to update that with time. Except that the joke just gets funnier with time as is.
Doc: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Sean: Sorry, I’m looking at the lettering on this and one of the things I like about Phil Balsman and Travis Lanham’s work as letterers is the distant space. The further ‘the camera’ is, the smaller the letters are.
David: Yeah!
Doc: Oh yeah.
Sean: Like when Steve Lombard is reacting to Krull destroying his car, there’s tiny letters, and then when we get closer it enlarges until he’s screaming PUT THAT DOWN.
Doc: Ahahaha
David: And I realized this time, after all this time, at the very end of that issue, you have the newspaper ad on ‘the new Luxus Samaritan’ with that same ‘What do they do? They surrender’ bit that Superman said, wherein it’s implied he saw that in the newspaper and said that, and the newspaper in turn was inspired by him. And it set up that loop.
And what I realized this time is that the new Luxus Samaritan is the car Krull is holding up at the beginning of the issue, and Steve Lombard’s yelling THAT’S MY CAR! I’M WRITING A FEATURE ON THAT CAR! Which means Lombard’s the one who writes that feature at the end.
Which also means when he’s saying “We don’t need Superman! And if you ask me, neither does Lois Lane. You tell me what a spaceman flying around in his underwear can give her that a good ol’ hunk of prime American manhood can’t!” and then he is technically proven right because he gives Superman the answer to save her at the end.
Doc: [Laughs]
Sean: I’m just looking at the hands that Frank Quitely draws, and my god, the detail!
Doc: Mmmhmm.
Sean: Especially Superman, where every hand he has is extremely veiny.
Doc: Yeah. And I think part of this is just…Quitely, his senses point toward this, but being able to see like the bones in a lot of people’s hands. I think part of that is just his sensibility but also, his work on this book is so much…I don’t wanna say so much different, but I look at the works before and after it, and it really does stand out on its own. In terms of what he chooses to keep in terms of detail, and what he leaves out. Especially in faces and a lot of the shots of the distance. I’m always really impressed by what he did on this.
David: The little stuff like how you can kinda tell that when someone points out that the Bizarros don’t have clothes, they have skin that looks like clothes, and he kinda draws the texturing such that you can notice that if you pay close enough attention.
Sean: And I just noticed a bit in the Doomsday issue that the color on Jimmy Olsen’s hair as he becomes more and more Doomsday disappears and as he comes back as Jimmy Olsen, his hair comes back as orange.
And in the end, Superman is saved by the Signalwatch.
David: I could probably give a whole other spiel on the many weird ways that Superman’s Best Pal and Superman’s Murderer have been weirdly connected over the years. But that’s a subject for another time.
Doc: [Laughs]
David: This is certainly the culmination.
So Doc, I was getting into comics with Batman R.I.P. as a regular monthly thing pretty much right when All-Star was ending, so I actually don’t really remember reading All-Star for the first time. Like, I very distinctly remember reading R.I.P. for the first time, but All-Star just sorta feels like it was always there. It’s one of the last books that has that sort of feeling for me. You I understand were reading it as it was coming out - what was that like? How evident was it at the time what this was becoming?
Doc: Actually, strangely enough, I definitely remember it coming out, at the time I wasn’t reading it, I don’t know why. I think because I was just young enough and early enough in my comics reading that it just…happened while I was also reading comics. And I don’t know why in retrospect, because I got into comics around the time of Morrison’s New X-Men run and I definitely read it, so y’know I was aware of Morrison, I was aware of Quitely, and I followed that book avidly. So I don’t know why when All-Star came about why it would pass under my radar. I just remember friends talking about it very excitedly. And when I think it was the 12th issue that got delayed for so long - there was a pretty big gap between the 11th and 12th issues coming out - I remember that being a big deal at the time. This is actually one of my go-to examples when I talk to other artists about deadlines and the like. It’s one of those things where - yeah, you don’t wanna be late, and I’m not trying to promote being late [Laughs] but at the same time barely anybody remembers that there were these huge delays in this book. All they remember is that it’s really good.
Sean: That was the same case with Watchmen. The last 4 issues were very delayed.
Doc: Right! Exactly! Exact same case. Nobody remembers that there were pauses between the book’s coming out, but they do remember, like we’ve been talking about, Quitely’s work and his attention to detail. I think he’s an amazingly subtle cartoonist when he wants to be. Kinda why he and Morrison work so well together is being able to plant little things for later on. But that takes a massive amount of time and planning to pull off correctly.
David: Oh yeah. It’s even I think - and we’re gonna get into this more, I’m sure - the reputation of All-Star as Grant’s relatively straightforward book when I don’t think that’s what it is at all. And I think part of that reputation, even aside from ‘it’s the Superman book’, is that they don’t have to say what they are doing a lot of the time, because they can trust Quitely to convey what needs to be conveyed without you necessarily consciously noticing it at the time until everything comes to fruition.
Doc: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
David: I’m flipping through it this whole time and I’m at #10, it’s the big one, he’s talking with Quintum on [Mars] and Quintum’s saying that everytime we tried to clone you, we made a damaged Bizarro replica, then it cuts to Nietzsche. That might be the funniest bit in the book to me.
Doc [Laughing]
David: And it’s certainly also on everyone’s mind lately, what with Superman: Legacy, James Gunn saying this is going to be the main influence on that movie, at least tonally, which is…interesting, because you really can’t adapt this for Superman’s first adventure.
Doc: Oh, no way.
David: Certainly, Gunn is willing to go gross in a fun way enough, but broadly speaking, I don’t think you could adapt what Quitely does visually, even just on a very basic panel for panel level. So what does the idea of ‘here’s what something like that should take from All-Star' mean to you?
Doc: Right. And it’s interesting you note, it’s the same thing when people ask ‘what’s your first Superman book? If I’m trying to get into Superman, what should I read?’ I think a lot of people bafflingly recommend All-Star as the first Superman book, and I couldn’t disagree more. I think that’s like intermediate at the lowest. [Laughs]
Sean: I actually did that as a project, outlining an article I meant to write at some point. Let me find it.
David: I mean, Grant, they do have a one-page summary. They manage to convey a lot of the essential information. But I think there’s a big difference even between ‘I think someone could feasibly read this as their only Superman book, and then reach a bunch of other very good comics’, but if you’re looking to read Superman broadly, then it isn’t the place to start.
Sean: Found it. The majority said that their first Superman book pick would be Birthright. All-Star was at 4 on the list behind Smashes The Klan and For All Seasons. Also on the list were Secret Identity, Up In The Sky, John Byrne’s Man of Steel, Secret Origin, Morrison’s Action Comics, For The Man Who Has Everything, Death and Return Of Superman (which is certainly a choice), Tomasi’s Superman, Red Son, and Up, Up, and Away.
David: Death and Return, statistically a lot of people’s first [Laughs] And whereas these days now I might just say, just watch My Adventures With Superman.
Sean: Yeah probably.
Doc: Oh yeah.
Sean: With that animation style? Absolutely.
David: All-Star as any kind of inspiration is an interesting start, because like, as an ethos to translate, it is so defined as…this is its own enclosed world with its own rules of conduct.
Doc: Mmmhmm.
David: Physically and in terms of what people are willing to roll with. And if that is how Legacy gets rolling as a ‘universe-builder’, even if that’s reportedly not the main function. I guess that kinda calls into question - how far is he going to be allowed to go with it?
Doc: Right! I’m gonna be interested to see what specific details make it in there. I likewise have a hard time seeing what of this you could do, especially for a first time, y’know, introducing a new actor in a role. And basically a new regime of DC movies. I find it very hard to believe that…specific instances, like I could see some of Jimmy’s story making it in.
Sean: Probably the Bizaro issue.
Doc: Yeah, I could see some of the Bizarro stuff making its way in there.
David: I don’t know that there’ll be space for it unless they end up doing a whole Day In The Life montage: I really think Gunn could kill it with Samson and Atlas.
Doc: Oh, yes! [Laughs]
David: Those are the antagonists he was born to write.
Sean: He’s absolutely gonna do the arm-wrestling scene.
David: That would be historical. And another thing I was really struck by on this re-read was it markets itself as The Last Superman Story. And the more time passes, the more that proves in a sense that wouldn’t have been obvious at the time to have been true? This is kind of the last stand of the classic model of Superman. Because right after this, in the regular comics, you get New Krypton. Which is very ‘that’s not regular Superman’. Then you get Grounded. And then you immediately get The New 52.
Doc: Mmmhmm.
David: And then that ends with Lois and Clark being married, but also now Jon is thrown in the mix, and that is a permanent shift in the basic crowd shot line-up of how a Superman comic looks. And even without getting into the Authority or anything of it all, yeah, this was kind of the final story that was really huge and really - big scare quotes - ‘counted’ of ‘Here’s mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent at the office, he’s in love with his co-worker Lois Lane who doesn’t know that he’s Superman.’
Sean: And it’s a story about Superman dying. About realizing he wasted so much time that he didn’t have enough time, and that he probably should have talked to Lois about it earlier.
David: Yeah, and it ends with that. And it is kind of the end of that version of Superman. It’s not really what the movies or TV shows did again after that. Its sense of finality only increases with time. And that’s not anything that could’ve been planned when doing the book. Morrison was just sort of…they even mentioned, the reason it’s a Death Of Superman book is just because there’d already been so many Death Of Superman stories that they thought if they were doing a definitive thing, it should probably be that.
Sean: And they even reference all the other ones. I’m pretty sure Lex Luthor is the one responsible for it in the first one.
David: Yeah, and there’s writing on the moon too, there's the I Love Lucy gag, and Doomsday’s in it-
Sean: It’s probably the best version of Bonesman McGee.
Doc [Laughing]
David: I can’t pull it up like instantly, I’d have to go through some notes, but I KNOW there’s some Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? in here.
Sean: I think it might be the Phantom Zone design?
David: Possibly. And there’s even a whole bit with Supreme in here. The whole scene with Mechanoman is basically a callback to the Cyberzerker stuff in Supreme, because that’s as much Superman as anything else.
Doc: [Laughing]
David: And you touched on it Sean, but Superman in here…and this is definitely another bit where a lot of it comes down to Quitely, is…he’s kind of a mess.
Sean: Yeah! He’s always been a mess! We have the flashback issue where he’s a kid, and has to act like Lana doesn’t know. Like it’s just a Boys Club.
David: That panel is SO…rough. And it makes good use of the idea of ‘They’re kind of just Smallville Lois and Jimmy’, because it shows he’s been doing this same thing to the same kinds of people forever.
Doc: Mmhmm
David: And Lois is a mess. There are definitely some issues with Lois in this book, I would have liked to see her do one super thing in the issue where she was Superwoman. But the bit where she’s like ‘What if he’s really Clark? I just don’t know if I could live with that.’ That’s ugly and that’s really good. You kind of get why ‘Yeah, these two people are great for each other, but maybe that says a lot’.
Sean: That might also be another element Gunn takes on.
David: Oh yeah, I’d like to think so.
Sean: Gunn has a love of absolute fucking messes. Just people who are utterly terrible for each other yet also bring out the best in one another. And this is also an element that appears to be showing up in My Adventures With Superman.
David: Oh certainly.
Sean: Lois and Clark are absolute messes.
David: And it really ends up striking that same kinda balance as All-Star where these are your perfect best friends who you love, and also they’re kinda neurotic hypocrites, and neither of those especially contradict each other.
Sean: In fact, they fuel each other. This is going back to what we’ve talked about with Doctor Who and Clara, wherein they are just utter messes and arguably terrible people who bring out the best in one another.
David: Well, I wouldn’t call this version of Clark terrible. He’s…a little tunnel-visiony. He’s still the guy in the sun at the end, who’s gonna have his moon baby who saves the future with Lois. I guess that’s as good a segue as any to get us into the bulk of it, which…let’s sorta talk about the Who of it all. Because re-reading this with that in mind, it’s funny that this came out I guess in the midst of Tennant, because I can definitely see a lot of the sweep of a lot of Doctor Who themes in this to come with Moffat. And I’m sure the series in general, I’m sure a lot of just classic Who imprinted on their storytelling. Doc, I'd be curious for you to lead with your thoughts. We know Morrison’s a Who-head and we know this had kind of a lot of overlap with the Who revival, and you’ve been watching it pretty much as much as me now. I guess I should say I’ve watched about as much as you now, since I’ve just caught up. But are there any big parallels that sort of stick out to you? I dunno, especially given a lot of the most obvious stuff is when Moffat hops on board later. But do you get the impression or does anything leap out at you as ‘Oh yeah, this is Superman written by a Doctor Who kid’?
Doc: It’s so funny. I know your rewatch is definitely more compressed than mine, because I since Tennant have kinda been watching as it happens, for the most part. And I discovered it in college because we got BBC America for free [Laughs]. And y’know, I didn’t really know Doctor Who before then. I just happened on it.
And I’m sure at some point I put it together that Morrison was Scottish. But I don’t know when that was. And I don’t think I would’ve made the connection on my own. Certainly not while I was reading All-Star for the first time or New X-Men or any of that. But I do remember, and I think I may have even talked to you about this at the time David, when I first read their Action Comics run. That’s when it hit me over the head. Like, oh! This is almost just barely just a Doctor Who story. And then it was going back to All-Star again. The last time I re-read All-Star was probably sometime in the last year, but it really hit me several times. Like you said, the whole flashback issue, A Funeral in Smallville, felt very Doctor Who-y to me.
Sean: Going back in time to see your younger self? That’s basically every multi-Doctor Who story.
David: And same as every multi-Doctor story, they end up kinda hating each other’s guts.
Sean: There’s also something that fits retrospectively with the Moffat era specifically, which is this is a story about Superman learning that he only has a year left to live. This is the end of his life. And in retrospect, that’s the same thing that essentially happens with the 11th Doctor, where he realizes that he’s on his final incarnation, and much like Superman, he just does what he always does - he travels the universe and helps people.
David: And even overlapping with the end of this you’ve got Tennant, his final set of specials are basically a death run where he has straight-up been told ‘Yeah, you’re done soon’ and he doesn’t take it as well.
Sean: Yeah. He takes it about as well as Superman does when he’s affected by Black Kryptonite, which is ‘I don’t wanna die!!’
Doc: Yeah. That’s funny that you say that, as since I’ve been watching Who - and I’m only vaguely familiar with everything before Eccleston. Kind of in the same way most folks are culturally aware of Doctor Who - I know that since I’ve been watching, I’ve always felt that that kind of aspect of the running clock kind of constantly underneath the surface has always felt like an aspect of Doctor Who that I just assumed was a constant. With the character, with the show in general.
Sean: There’s a complicated answer to that. I've seen the eras prior to the modern stuff; not all of it because there's a lot of it, and some of it's missing, and some is kind of awful and I will not be subjecting David to it. Except for one which I have to do it for historical reasons that David will understand when we get to it.
Doc: [Laughs] Gotcha.
Sean: Anyway the finale of it is actually more of a modern interpretation; usually it's just another adventure that ends with [a regeneration]. There are some exceptions, uh, Logopolis being the obvious one, wherein there's a set, there’s a real sense of the story with the Watcher standing before The Doctor and realizing, yeah, this is going to be the last adventure. This is not good. And this is not going to be one where everybody lives. It's usually in the final story that there's a degree of finality. There are some exceptions like, like the time in the Rani where basically Colin Baker refused to show up because he was going to be killed off, so they just put Sylvester McCoy in a wig.
David: [Laughs]
Doc: [Laughs] Wow.
Sean: Which again highlights even more that this is a Doctor Who story because Leo Quintum literally has a wig on.
Doc: Mmhmm, mmhmm.
David: He’s wearing the most Doctor Who jacket imaginable.
Sean: Yeah, you all think it's Lex Luthor, but I, a genius, know it's Doctor Fucking Who!
Yeah, but there are a few…there is one that I'm absolutely gonna show that I think David and I are going to watch at some point, which is The Caves of Androzani, which is quite possibly the best Doctor Who story ever made.
Doc: Ooh, okay.
David: Ooo, I had not heard that reputation before. Speaking of classic Who, was a Christmas alien invasion like a tradition before the revival, because it comes up in here.
Sean: No, it was not. The Christmas stuff was because they had an extra episode and needed to, I forget the exact technical reasons, but it was a new thing for it. There were some specials like The Five Doctors and The Curse of the Fatal Death. Otherwise it generally was just the episodes…there was a Christmas episode, however! Back in the 1st Doctor era, wherein Doctor Who is traveling [and] ends up [in] a massive, multi part adventure that I think is twelve parts long, it's this hot mess of an episode about dogs trying to take over the world. I think it's The Dalek Master Plan…it's called The Feast of Steven. Doctor Who and his companions end up in…I think a TV studio or theater, I forget the exact details. It's a missing episode so I can't watch it, but one of the most amazing things about it is the ending moment where, y’know, they all realize that it’s Christmas, so they pour some champagne and have a toast with one another. And then Doctor Who looks into the camera and goes ‘And incidentally, a happy Christmas to all of you at home!’
Doc: [Laughs] Wow.
David: [Laughs] I hope that was received in good cheer and not a bunch of kids’ tenuous grasp on reality shattering.
Doc: [Laughs] Just screaming.
Sean I don't think it ended in a War of the Worlds situation, but I'm sure Mark Gatiss would have made the entire chapter of the movie about that. And then had it cut for time, like he had for the rest of the back half of the movie, which was basically like…if I'm remembering correctly, An Adventure in Space and Time was supposed to go for the entirety of William Hartnell's time on Doctor Who, which means it would have gone into the 3rd up to John Pertwee's The Three Doctors, where I believe Mark Gatiss was going to play John Pertwee.
David: It's #4 through #9 that are really…Who reflective. Four is the Olsen issue, and that's basically a companion starring special with him in the Quintum jacket. I mean, if you want to talk again prefiguring Moffat, that's basically, you know, ‘Clara has to become The Doctor.’
Sean: Yeah. It's a Flatline.
David: And the Lex issue is the most ‘this is The Master’ thing of like…man, I know you apparently like, think he has this great guy deep down in him, but you're really making it everyone else's problem how far you're willing to go to prove it.
Sean: Yeah. Yeah, that's basically been the relationship between Doctor Who and The Master all this time.
David: And, you know, #6 is the crossover, #7 is the Christmas invasion. And then #8 is real…well, I mean, it's really Doctor Who also just because he's on an alien planet with no powers, and has to deal with a guest of the week in Zibarro. But that one is really classic Who just in terms of, he just has landed in a weird place and he's got to figure it out, because for all intents and purposes, he lost the TARDIS and has to figure another way out. And then #9 is him dealing with the Time Lords.
Sean: Yep. And as usual, the Time Lords are fucking assholes.
David: They even kinda look Time Lordy, I know, I think like, Quietly just remodeled it on the Byrne stuff, but that itself looks like Time Lords, so that's just what you get.
Sean: Yeah. They're assholes with stupid hats.
Doc: [Laughs]
David: God the hat like, I know like Byrne wanted to make Kryptonians really like repressed and subliminated, but he did not have the courage to stick dicks on their heads like Bar-El and Lilo.
Sean: Is that better or worse than a TARDIS console with a bunch of penises worshiping a giant penis in the middle?
David: So thanks to El Sandifier for pointing that out for Whittaker TARDIS. And yeah, and that issue also kind of like, you can kind of draw…Morrison’s mentioned that was their least favorite issue to write. And I get why, it's basically like 22 pages about your family thinking you suck and are a wussy because you're a writer instead of a cool Scottish strongman like them.
Sean: You're not an anarchist trying to overthrow nuclear bombs.
David: But there's also like, I mean it kind of sets up everything Superman does in the next issue, but it's also so much setting up everything they go on to do with Superman after this. Like this is basically Superman being confronted by like a couple Miracleman/Authority people and having to admit they make, like they're real assholes, but they make some points. And that's how you get eventually, the t-shirt stuff and then Authority.
Sean: It's certainly the better version of What’s So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?
David: I almost wonder if that's why they end up referring to Jor-El as a dreamer in this. Also best Clark Kent moment of all time, with “I…uh…got trapped in the bathroom during the…ah…the Bizarro invasion…with three unopened Thanksgiving baskets and the complete works of Shakespeare. Fortunately Suh-Superman heard my cries for help and, well…here I am.”
Sean: Oh yeah, I'm just looking at another sequence of this, Steve Lombard trying to light Clark's ass on fire.
Doc: Yeah, yeah.
Sean: Just the build up to it's like…some comics will just have the moment happen, without realizing it, but Frank builds it up for a couple panels, like you see you see Steve whisper or just do the shush motion and then it goes to the next motion of the fires’ on Superman's ass and then Superman's ass is on fire and then Superman lights Steve's hair piece on fire.
David: And it's so in the background because of Jimmy showing off his ‘Kryptonian overpants’ that you could plausibly not notice what's happening until Clark does.
Doc: When I say like Quietly is such a brilliant subtle artist that's what like…the fact that you don't see Clark's heat vision. Like you really have to look to see Clark's eyes glowing and notice that he's you know actively lighting the hairpiece on fire. That kind of touch is just really, really clever.
Sean: Yeah, hell, the body language on Clark in that moment is really pissed off. Like, that small frown.
David: Even then he's still like sort of like, he's pushing his chin down to try and artificially give himself a double chin.
Doc: Oh yeah.
David: Like some…you know, I just realized now as I'm saying it like you know, Morrison's talked a million times about their big breakthrough of Superman, that he wouldn't have to flex and pose and show himself off, you know, if he's an invulnerable man and doesn't have to worry about anything. But like with Clark, there he is putting in the effort. There he's like constantly contorting and repositioning and exerting himself.
Sean: Yeah, he looks extremely uncomfortable in every panel.
David: Yeah, it's not even a hundred percent fake or put on because you know, he's talking way back in the flashback about how ‘I grew up in Kansas, everything’s cramped here.’
Doc: Yeah.
David: And he can do that and then he can still do you know, circling back around to the beginning, the Chronovore, and he can do Parasite and the dinosaur people and-
Sean: Reagan.
David: -and the Underverse. Yeah, and Reagan and yeah, that's why he has really been Morrison's number one collaborator over the years is…like there's the obvious, you know, the go-to of like ‘it really FEELS three dimensional’, but he captures it all so specifically with such physical-seeming weight to it and the momentum that gives it that like…all of it seems equally real. Like it's easy to read this and not be as struck by weird stuff as in a lot of Morrison's other work, but that's because Quitely so convincingly frames it all as all equally…this pocket Frank Quietly-verse.
Doc: Yeah, Quietly’s great at setting up, I think visually setting up ‘rules’ for what you're going to be reading, and playing with that and you know, bending into it or away from it, but keeping it consistent in a way that everything is plausible, everything feels tangible. Again, he's just incredible at that.
David: Yeah, he always plays by very strict storytelling rules, everything is always very clear and I nearly cursed out loud just now because right after saying it's all a little perfect pocket Quietlyverse, I turned to the Qwewq page where that's introduced that describes ‘Earth Q. Is that why Morrison called it that?
Sean: Motherf…
David: Never occurred to me before this moment! I mean, it already makes sense because of the Qwewq title, but maybe this is just one of those synchronicities Grant loves to talk about.
Sean: The world is full of magic. And sometimes that magic results in horrible things happening. But sometimes you get Earth Q.
David: Oh, and you know, I was talking about #4-9, but also like #3, you know, you've got like meeting the historical figures in Samson and Atlas. And even like the final thing at the end is Superman without powers, fending for himself with a non-lethal weapon, with a thing that's kind of like a sci fi ray gun, but really isn't. It's just a way of resolving the problem without throwing any punches, until he does throw a punch at the end because Lex is really pissing him off.
Sean: Yeah, and then there's also going back to Leo Quintum, putting aside the 6th Doctor outfit of it all, there's very much a connection to Grant Morrison's Doctor Who, the 3rd Doctor, a scientist living on earth with a semi paramilitary organization that mostly deals with alien stuff. And he's dealing with scientific breakthroughs while trying to figure out a problem that will take him pretty much his entire tenure.
David: I feel very silly now that you've pointed that out because I know all that stuff you just mentioned! I know that like, oh yeah, he's trying to get back, and like Morrison even describes [Quintum] in the backmatter as like having this ‘man who fell to Earth’ vibe, that he was originally Lightray, which is probably the main [reason[ why I think Grant's lying that this was Lex, because no, you straight up said like it was always your idea that he was going to turn out to be somebody else.
And yeah, I've kind of used up a lot of my notes. I'm just struggling not to like go ‘Oh remember, remember, remember?’ Because y’know I turned to the last issue again now thinking like the whole last issue is basically like the devolution of Superman. Because you know, he dies after fighting Solaris, which you know, they say and that's kind of true, because after that he's Kal-El - and Morrison even said in early interviews that we'd see Superman without the underwear at [some] point and that seemed to be a false promise but we see the Superman costume without the underwear in like the first page of this - we’re on Krypton, and then he's just Clark. And then he's just kind of a pulp hero, in that like he's a sci-fi spaceman with a ray gun fighting against a mad scientist, and then he's just a guy punching another guy, and then he's just a boy with a girl, and then he literally decays into the idea of himself.
Sean: Yeah, before the bomb was a bomb the bomb was an idea. Superman is a faster, stronger, better idea.
David: And where's that essay available to read again, Sean?
Sean: The Gutter Review.
David: It's Sean unpacking that thesis.
Sean: Yeah, believe it or not that's the condensed version of it.
David: I absolutely do believe it.
Sean: Yeah, I have - the longer version was twenty thou-...30,000 words long.
David and Doc: [Laughs]
David: Yeah, so I'm very glad you picked this Sean, because yeah, it's so…and I mean, you know, you go through Morrison's work and there's Doctor Who all over place, there's a Dalek in JLA Classified and -
Sean: They ran for Doctor Who.
David: - this kind of manifestation. But like I…this was already going to be enriched for me just because I was coming to it from a perspective of ‘I'm years older and haven't read it years, so it's gonna read very differently’, but also just reading it with that perspective of this and knowing that Grant is a fan has definitely…like knowing that was one of [their] big original ideas of like the big space hero has informed a lot of how they approached this for me.
Do either of you two have further stuff you want to add on at length?
Sean: Besides just in general asking Doc questions about Adam Strange, not really.
Doc: [Laughs] Well, it's funny, when I, I hadn't reread this for a long period and then, working on Strange - you know, I don't want to derail this into Strange Adventures, but - I picked this back up to -
David: Look, go where you please!
Doc: Okay, well, I picked this back up again when I think we were an issue into Strange Adventures, and I was feeling very…I hadn't done high sci-fi in a while, and I was feeling a little rusty in terms of capturing that, and this was the first thing I went to. And you know, I don't like the whole idea of saying ‘such and such really influenced me while I was working on the book’, but I know that I went through and I was making notes of Quitely’s shot choices several times throughout Strange Adventures. Just because I love the way Quitely frames a wide shot. And I really, really, really wanted to get that into Strange Adventures as much as I could, just because we were working on that three tier structure and I knew I was going to have to jam as much stuff into each panel as I could.
David: Oh absolutely - and I think you did an excellent job of it! -
Doc: [Laughs] That’s kind of you.
David: - but yeah, like, I mean, it especially opens up with the Absolute, which I'm so glad to be able to get my hands on. But this really is like, if you go through it and slow down, it's almost as much of a widescreen book as the kind of stuff he did in Authority, it just isn't as showy, as obvious about it.
Doc: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
David: And then, you know, I said how much of Grant’s Superman stuff followed on the approach they took in here. Quitely, he went on, he did Jupiter's Legacy and that was with Utopian in there as the older Kingdom Come-y Superman type. He is kind of like the big posing strutting guy. And that's how you can kind of tell this isn't working, that this world is not playing out such that this is going to be a guy who can lead us into a happy ending. He's a little too up his own ass about this whole thing.
Doc: Mmhm.
David: And eventually he ended up drawing a Super Sons cover too, so I guess we kind of got to see his take on the little Superman 2 at the end of this. Which, I remember very vividly seeing that cover and going, ‘Oh my God, I guess Jon Kent's really a thing now. Like, I thought he’d get rebooted away but like, Quietly drew him, so I guess he's real.’
Doc: [Laughs] Right.
David: And, you know, and right on to the very end of this with the big Superman 2 sign. And…that’s so good.
Doc: [Laughs] You two keep talking and I keep getting stuck looking at pages. I'm sitting there leafing through them.
David: Very understandable impulse, yeah. And Grant even mentioned in one of their newsletters that their big Superman thing and their big Batman thing and their big Wonder Woman thing all end with them having test tube babies.
Doc: Holy crap!
Sean: Well, the Batman one starts with him having his test to baby.
David: Oh yeah but then at the end, you've got like Ra’s with like the bank of new Damians. And Morrison said no one had noticed this or pointed it out. Ritesh Babu would like to make a point that yes, yes, he did. He noticed.
Sean: He notices everything.
David: And…I was going to say that leads into the Superman Squad, and I'm just so glad the Superman Squad is in the best Superman comic because they're so great. And it's a shame that Grant never did that Superman Squad spinoff in any form the way they did their other spinoff ideas.
Sean: Maybe The Authority?
David: Little bit! There's a little bit of that in that - actually, I think if it became anything, I think it became the Legion two parter in their Action run because they mentioned in the run, they said like ‘I'm doing a two parter coming up and it's a time travel thing, and I was going to use the Superman Squad, but I decided to go with these other people instead’ and then it turned out to be Legion.
But basically, now they’re going to stick with Klaus as far as cape stuff goes, as long…I was going to foolishly say as long as Dan Mora can make time, like Dan Mora can't bend time to his whim. They did, you know, they popped in for that one last Pride special where they got Hayden Sherman, they went back to those Justice 9 characters you designed Doc.
Doc: Yeah, that was such a treat. I couldn't believe…you know, when you do that kind of job, you don't assume that you're going to ever see those characters again. And that is my only like, barely connected thread to Morrison. Even when I did it at the time, you know, I got all of Morrison's notes through the editor and everything. I don't even know for sure that Morrison knew that I was the one designing those. But I love seeing those Earth 36 costumes show up again, and seeing Hayden draw them was incredible.
David: Yeah, god, that one, that really was gorgeous. And I loved, I think there, I don't know if you check out Grant's newsletter…
Doc: Oh no, yeah, I read it.
David: Okay, yeah, because they annotated that story too. So for our listeners, a lot of their newsletter stuff is behind a paywall, but I think a lot of their own issue by issue annotations of a lot of their DC work over the years, I think those are the public enticement. And I was glad to see Optiman again! I'm glad he made it out okay. Somehow.
Doc: [Laughs] Yeah.
David: And it's not like Optiman’s ever shown in up and much or we know much about him, but you know, he's been popping up a little bit since Final Crisis, and for whatever reason I just like the guy. Nice design. He seems nice.
Doc: Yeah, yeah. I love the idea of a Superman in an orange costume.
David: Which should not work, but it really does.
Doc: Yeah, no part of it makes, on paper no part of it makes sense, but it tickles me to death.
Sean: It just might be one of those instances where the artist just makes it work.
David: Oh, wait! I'm being stupid! Of course it works: he has the same color scheme as Goku.
Doc: [Laughs]
David: Okay, there's something to unpack in the future.
Doc: [Laughs]
David: Oh man, and I know it's the big, loosely reflecting the Big Bang Comics stuff, which
I know they're launching another Kickstarter for an another volume of that, but now I'm not going to be able to stop thinking about it as the DC Dragon Ball Earth, but that's another conversation.
Sean: Isn't the one where the DC comics is matched up with manga characters a different earth?
David: Well, they've got the DC Mecha Earth [from] Kenny Porter, that was a mini lately and Mark Waid tossed that into the new multiverse.
So I guess we're getting pretty near the end then. Doc, you know, great to have you, great talking this with you. I know you've got Strange Adventures on the shelves, you've got The New Champion of Shazam! on the shelves with Josie Campbell, you've got vaguely defined but very exciting future stuff coming up. And you know, we can find you on Twitter, and are you on Bluesky? I know you're on Tumblr.
Doc: Yeah, I'm on Bluesky. I believe it's also Doc Shaner.
David: Okay.
Sean: Are there any projects you want to plug?
Doc: Nothing I can talk about yet. I'm hard at work on the next two projects, but they're, um…I mean, I can say that I'm writing now, and finding that writing takes a lot longer than drawing, surprisingly.
David: Oh my!
Doc: Insofar as I've written it, but the channels that scripts go through takes much longer than the barely there channel that art goes through.
David: Well, I think I speak for both of us and the listeners in general that we’re very much looking forward to that. Sean and I, we’re on Tumblr, we're on Twitter, we're on Bluesky.
Sean: We’ll probably include the links for those in the description.
David: We're both on Patreon, I just launched mine recently where you'll be able to sort of influence the course of the newsletter a little bit for a mere pittance per month. And Sean just relaunched essentially their Patreon. Plenty of new stuff coming up, I have a Bleach piece that I have been promising forever, but now that this is out of the way that will actually be happening. So if you want, if anyone has hopped on this to hear a chat with Doc, you know, you'll be able to see that next coming up soon and decide if I'm something you want to stick with long term. You've got Sean all over the place.
Sean: Yeah, currently I'm serializing my article on the live action Spider-Man movies, and we
are just about to approach the ones with Tom Holland.
Oh boy.
Doc: [Laughs]
David: Oh, I got to have - oh, go ahead Doc.
Doc: Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. I keep laughing and humming and hawing and everything.
David: I was just going to say I got to see a early draft of this project, the Spider-Man project, I think sometime last year, and you folks are in for a treat in equal and opposite proportion to the amount Sean suffered for it.
Sean: Yup.
David: Considerably.
Sean: Yeah.
David: And you know, I guess we're signing out, Doc one last time really appreciate you making the time for this, this was a lot of fun.
Sean: Yep, thank you.
Doc: Thank you guys for having me, this was a pleasure to talk with you both about it.
David: All right! Until next time, I don't know when the next podcast type version of the newsletter will be. There should be a transcribed version of this. See you all around.
Sean: All right, and now for the traditional next time bit.
Next time: Running through Paris! We're running through Paris! Running through Paris!
We're run, run, run, run, run!